Am I drawing too much power?

Even older tom · Am I drawing too much power?

I've just fitted a Seuthe smoke unit to my Railroad 0-4-0 (cheap loco, didn't mind it it all went Pete Tong and the thing blew up!) but I've found that by the time the distilate heats up and smoke starts to be generated, the power drops and the loco comes to a stop.
Do I need a beefier controller/transformer?

Teleman

What type of transformer is it ?
And how much power does the smoke unit need ? (If the smoke unit needs more than 1/2 amp or 500ma you will need a beefier one if its the Hornby controller)

Even older tom

Yep, it's a Hornby basic controller and unless I can suddenly understand German, I haven't a clue what power the unit draws!
Does this mean I need to get a controller from somewhere like Gaugemaster?

Teleman

The Hornby controller trips at 1 amp so that may be where the trouble is .I use the ECM compspeed they can handle 1.5 amps and are panel mounting and they are getting on for 20 years old now and never any trouble even when Ryan used them .

Even older tom

Thanks Pete. I've had another look at the destructions and it's meant to draw 120ma. If this is the case, should the Hornby controller manage it as well as the loco motor? Any idea what an OO gauge motor draws?

Then again, I could take the body off again to make sure I've not wired it wrong!

Teleman

Not more than 500ma on the small hornby motor

Even older tom

Thanks again Pete (thinks ... first job tomorrow is take the body off and have another go at fitting the /////// thing.)

Even older tom

Re-wired the loco and it works fine now. There's an extra component in the wire to the motor which isn't in the maintenance leaflet. I tapped power between it and the motor, so I guess it was too much for it. Have now wired direct from the pick ups and it runs without stopping.

Still got a problem, though! The unit is designed for 10 - 16 volts. On this engine, 10 volts is nearly full power so I have to run it very fast in order to get any volume of steam. Anyone got any ideas how I can gear the thing down so it runs a tad slower but still gives loadsa smoke?

Teleman

Try putting resistor in the supply for the motor 1/2 watt should do .There was some one on the H site that wored out the value on defrent locos i will see if i can find it

Teleman

Try a 39 or 47 ohm (pre value) to start with as he said 44 ohm for Smokey Joe

Even older tom

Thanks, Pete. I think that's what's already in there. What else could be in-line to a motor? There are also TWO (!) TV supressors. I've just looked on Maplins and got totally confused. Any chance you can supply a link to what I need, please?
Cheers

Teleman

Might be a coil as a part of the suppressor circuit .
Maplin part numbers M39R & M47R
PS I dont like there site to

try this site
http://www.chsinteractive.co.uk/e...watt/47r-0-6w-m-film-res-0207.htm

http://www.chsinteractive.co.uk/e...watt/39r-0-5w-resistor-carbon.htm

Even older tom

Terrific, thanks again, Pete. I will order one tomorrow.

Teleman

If you order from CHS on the net they send you some sweets to

(only 4

)

Even older tom

No sweets for me!

I'm getting a complemetary pen. OOOOHH!, can't wait!!!!!

Teleman

I'm getting a complemetary pen. OOOOHH!, can't wait!!!!![/quote]

It is quite a nice pen ,if it's the same as the rep left here last time he called

Even older tom

I got the pen AND 4 sweeties! Lucky me!

What do I do now, Pete? There is already a component in-line on one wire to the motor. It's red and has an E on it (tired to upload a photo but it's not working - I keep getting errors) and looks like another risistor.
Can I just cut the same wire and solder in the new resistor like this?

+ _______ new risitor____old component____>
MOTOR
-_____________________________________>

Or what?

Teleman

Er yes that way should be ok or if the space is tight around the motor you can put it the - side of the motor ( I got sweets with my order to)

Even older tom

Thanks Pete, I will put it on the neg. side.

'Tune for maximum smoke' comes to mind!

Teleman

Just had a look at Ryans Little Giant and i see the part you mean ,Its a coil so its part of the suppression circuit so you can put it in line with that as it has a long lead on it

Teleman

Even older tom

Problem... It ran for les than 1/2 sec and produced loads of Seuthe smoke but woudn't move again. Took the body off and the insulating tape around the resistor had melted! Any ideas, Pete?

Teleman

It sounds like you are putting all the power through the resistor . Try the resistor between the coil and the motor

edit note use a new resistor in case the smoke came from the resistor and not the smoke unit

Even older tom

OK, will do.

This is becoming a fully fledged saga... 'Even Older Tom and the Smokey Grail'

Can I have the film rights?

Edit question : is there a direction for the resistor? Could I have wired it backwards?

Even older tom

Still got problems. I've re-wired it and run it with the motor free-wheeling (not under load) and I get Seuthe smoke and can control the speed. When I put a load on the motor (finger pressure) the resistor heats up very quickly and starts melting the insulation tape.
Where do I go from here? Any ideas Pete?

Teleman

Try putting two resistors in parallel so they share the power

Even older tom

Will do. I'm getting loads of soldering practice. I'd forgotten how much fun it was! (I don't think

)

Even older tom

Now it's getting personal ....

The smoke works ever so well, motor control is fine but the problem is I CAN'T GET THE MOTOR TO WORK WHEN THE BODY IS ON!!!!!

I guess there's a short (or open) when everything is back in place.

Who'd have thought I would get soooo much enjoyment (sic) from this little conversion...

I will get there if it kills me (and it just might by the amount of Seuthe smoke I've inhaled while testing the little b++++r!)

Signed,

Depressed of Crawly Down

Teleman

You could be shorting it on the motor can ?

Even older tom

I thought that might be the case but the 'can' part of the motor rests on a bit of tape already fitted by Hornby and all the new stuff is well insulated. I don't think it's a short because the controller doesn't trip out and the smoke still works. I'm thinking more on the lines that it's an open. The most difficult to diagnose!

poliss

I read somewhere that smoke oil is polyethylene glycol (anti-freeze). Very nasty if swallowed.
*nearly wrote ant-freeze*

Even older tom

No probs, Pol. I've still got some brandy left. Then I'll get onto the Brasso and Cider.

poliss

Wot no IPA?

Even older tom

All gone. Got some lager on the go now. Ready next Tuesday. (I don't actually like lager from a Pub 'cos it's so fizzy but thought I'd try making a real draught version - I'll keep you posted) ... hic!

poliss

Homemade lager hmmm. Cover all sharp table edges with foam rubber, better do the floors and walls too. Remember, no naked flames!!

Even older tom

Sorted....

It was a dry joint. Pressure of the body being in place gave an open circuit. Frustrating but (hopefully) worthwhile little project.
Just to bore you, I'll do a vid and put it on YouTube (if it keeps on working, that is

)

Teleman

Now you know how i feel somedays you have 1000s of joints in a tv set and you have to find the one thats dry

Even older tom

Being an IBM engineer in the 70's and 80's when boxes had components you could actually solder, I don't envy your job today Pete!

Teleman

Thats why what hair i have got left is going gray !

Even older tom

If you open Google Earth and search on RH10 4XU, you will see a blue dot in a field....

THAT'S WHERE MY 0-4-0 IS CURRENTLY RESTING AFTER I THREW IT!!!!!

It all went to rat s==t. Big bang, melted plastic.... bye bye engine.

Right, what's my next project going to be? Convert my Class 31 to steam? Easy peasey!

Teleman

Found the dot but no photo came up send it to CB22 3XE and i will have a look or put it across the road (see map)

Even older tom

After throwing the thing into the field, I had a brainwave. I thought 'Why not have a low voltage on board supply to the motor and use the 10-12v from the controller to give the smoke unit the power it needs?'
So I went out and retrieved the thing (luckily, the farmer had cut the grass a couple of weeks ago) and set to work.
The results will be posted on this forum and YouTube shortly.

Be ready to be impressed, be ready to be VERY impressed!

Teleman

Can't wait ..

.. i've got the plasticine ready ( to be impressed in )

Even older tom

Not even within the 'groan' border Pete.... well outside!

Teleman

Thanks

thats one of my best ones !

Teleman

Is this it ? i can see through all that smoke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GUcDenA5H0

poliss

Instead of batteries why not use resistors?

Even older tom

I must have done something wrong when I tried using resistors, it always melted or blew up!

I'd like to try the resistor solution on a larger loco. Has anyone got an old clapped out loco they don't want?

poliss

Hmm, my limited knowledge of electronics says to me that you need a resistor in each power feed and that the reverse voltage should not be higher than the resistor can handle. The resistors should be of a type that don't get hot, so I'm guessing that the input voltage they can take should be higher than the standard 12v from a transformer.
Speculation. Would it be possible to use a 16v AC supply for the Seuthe unit rectified to 10v DC? I read on this page http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co...=a51286a99377d65017346bc3b8924701 that more than 10v shortens the life of the smoke unit.

Or, you could go the DCC route.

Rog (RJ)

A 47 ohm resistor in series with the motor should drop 12 Volts down to 3 Volts for the motor.

Assuming 200 milliamps motor current, a 2 Watt ressistor should be big enough.

A 47 Ohm 2 Watt resistor may be a bit high making the loco too slow. If so try a 33 Ohm 2 Watt.

Even older tom

Thanks for the suggestions Pol and Rog. I think my problems lay with the fact that it was a very small loco with limited space so that every time the body was re-fitted, I got a short or an open - it was all VERY frustrating.

Hence the 'cheat' solution.

As I said, I'd love to go down the resistor route but need a larger loco with more internal space. I'll just keep on wishing, for now

Teleman

Just a thought .. how about running the smoke unit at high frequency (like coach lights) and then you can have back control of the loco

poliss

You mean like I suggested in my last post?

Even older tom

Thanks Pete, but to be honest, my layout is so small that running one uncontrolled loco is not a problem.

Now the Mk2 layout could be a different matter.... hmmmmm....

CineSteam

poliss

You need to check the 'stall current' to find out. You will need a multimeter to do the test. If you don't have one then I would advise buying one as they are one of the essential tools for railway modelling.

See the instructions on Brian Lamberts website.
http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.htm#STALL%20CURRENT%20TEST
Also see the post elsewhere on this forum about which dial settings to use on your multimeter.
http://thecentralstation.myfreefo....html&highlight=stall+current